Red’s Celebrity Interviews: Gail Collins
Gail Collins knows a little bit about firsts. A columnist with the New York Times since 1995, in 2001 she became the first woman ever appointed editor of the Times editorial page. Leaving that job six years later to finish a book, she returned to writing her pithy, humorous and devastatingly on target columns that same year. Collins, the author of several books including America’s Women: 400 Years of Dolls, Drudges, Helpmates and Heroines, sat down recently to talk to Red about her latest tome When Everything Changed: The Amazing Journey of American Women from 1960 to the Present (Little Brown 2009, $27.99)
I was amazed when reading your book about how quickly things have changed for women and though we still have a ways to go, your opening vignette about Lois Rabinowitz, a Manhattan secretary who went to court to pay her boss’s traffic fine and got kicked out because she was wearing pants, was really amazing. And it wasn’t that long ago.
That was in 1960 and the judge went nuts, he said she was defaming the honor of the traffic court and sent her home to put on more appropriate clothes though men could wear sweatshirts and overalls in his court. He also told her husband, who was with her, “start now and clamp down a little bit or it’ll be too late.” So many women I’ve talked to remember those days and how awful it was. If you worked in the Post Office you had to wear a skirt. And it was extremely uncomfortable, extremely cold for some women. The right to wear sensible clothes was completely withheld.
And there was the men’s only plane . . .
Yes, that’s the plane United used to have that went from New York to Chicago every day–the Executive Express. It was men only. A woman could not buy a seat on that flight. So it was too bad for them if they needed to get to Chicago at that time. The men on that flight were served huge steaks and cigars and part of the training stewardesses received was how to lean over and light their cigars.
The amazing thing to me was that it wasn’t illegal to have men only flights.
Whenever I talk about the Executive Express, someone asks a question like wasn’t it illegal, and I say nothing was illegal back then. It was perfectly legal to say, “We don’t hire women for this job,” or as Newsweek told Nora Ephron when she applied for a reporter job, “Women don’t write. They only research.” There was the head of the medical school who said “We do keep women out, when we can. We don’t want them here.”
None of that was illegal?
None of it. In 1960 the vision of women’s limitations of the proper role for women in society was not, at bottom, much different than it was, say, in 1200 or 1600. And it all changed in such a small period of time. It knocks me out when I think of it.
New York Times columnist Gail Collins credits her career advancement to the women who came before her and opened doors that until 1960 had been closed to women. Collins recounts the female revolution in her newest book, When Everything Changed: The Amazing Journey of American Women from 1960 to the Present.
You interviewed over 100 people for your book, is there one interview that stands out?
One of my favorite stories is about Lorena Weeks. She was just one of those people who just do something because they believe in what they’re doing. She applied for a job as a switchman and was denied because there was a law in Georgia that women couldn’t lift heavy equipment over 30 pounds, though she had been lifting her typewriter which weighed more than that every day. She sued and lost but kept fighting. Her husband was horrified, her kids were petrified but she just went on. And she finally won her case. She’s just a regular woman, she just instinctively knew what was right and what was wrong. And she just went on.
How did it change?
There were many factors–the birth control pill so that women could no longer be denied jobs and promotions because they might get pregnant. Before the pill, women used birth control but it wasn’t as effective–it might limit the number of kids they had to three instead of 12. Suddenly you didn’t’ have to be a woman committed to being single to get ahead. You could be married or sexually active and control when you had children. Financially, there was a little window of opportunity in the 1950s where you could obtain the middle class on just one salary but that went away in the 1970s and you needed that extra income. Then there was the Civil Rights Movement.
The Civil Rights Movement?
Yes, women helped spearhead the movement. Rosa Parks was arrested for not giving up her seat and they had a huge rally when she got out of jail but she wasn’t invited to speak.
You were born in 1945, were you part of the women’s movement?
There were women who were one second ahead of me, who filed the suits, took on the fights and generally they were not the ones who got the rewards, it was those of us who followed, who went through the doors they had opened.
So no stories about you fighting the good fight?
One of my first jobs was in Connecticut and in the capital there was this dreadful room called the Hawaiian Room. It was where the lobbyists and the legislators went to drink. Male reporters could go in, too. A woman radio reporter filed some kind of complaint and the legislators’ response was instantly to bar all reporters from the Hawaiian Room. The male reporters were so angry at her for doing that. At the time I just sort of thought, “Wow, who would want to go to a Hawaiian Room?” I totally did not get it at all.
You talk a lot about Gloria Steinem and I think she showed women that they could be glamorous and demand to be taken seriously at the same time.
Yes, there was a thought in the early days of feminism that women shouldn’t wear make-up and they should wear sensible shoes and that part of the movement just hit the wall. Speaking of Gloria, during the presidential campaign I wrote that the woman’s movement had made it possible for Sarah Palin to run for the vice presidency and Gloria called me and said if that’s true, I’m going to shoot myself now.
–Interview by Jane Ammeson, Red Editorial Staff







With the Bee Gee’s hit “Stayin’ Alive” pulsing deep in the background on your 8 track player, you slowly stuff yourself into those slick white polyester tuxedo pants that have been laying neatly folded in your drawer since last year. A shimmy here, a dab of Vaseline there, a tug on the pliers and, ohh yeah, you’re in. A little snug, but the ladies like that. Mom must have washed the damned things. That zipper worked a few years ago. Oh well. Man like you grooves on the easy access.