On the surface, it might not make a whole lot of sense for a film critic to interview a United States Senator, but I say it makes perfect sense. Hollywood and Washington have an awful lot in common with each other, after all.
Hollywood just loves finding new and exciting ways to blow up the Washington Monument, for example, and both towns are very, very good at spending lots of money. Plus, there’s Reagan.
But the real reason I ended up in D.C. talking to Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-MO) is because we’re living through some pretty strange political days, and since I’m not the only American who would rather sit in a dark theatre than stare into Wolf Blitzer’s eyes, I took this chance to ask Sen. McCaskill to help the rest of us average Joes understand what’s going on with health care, why Congress has such an image problem, and how Clooney, Pitt and Matt Damon can erase our budget deficit.
I’d like to begin by saying thank you for taking the time to talk, and even though you’re an MU fan and I’m a Jayhawk, I hope we can have a successfully bipartisan interview.
We can try to get by that. I will try not to focus on it during the interview so I can remain civil and polite.
Excellent, thanks! So, who do you think is better at spending money, Washington or Hollywood?
I think both are pretty good at it. One of the things that’s been neat in the last five or six years–it seems to me, anyway–is that independent films have gotten a lot more traction. There are a lot more outlets for these kinds of films, and they’re my favorites. My husband and I have a tendency to go to just one or two movie houses in St. Louis because it’s where all of the “non-blockbuster” films are, and those movies show that you can make a great movie and make money on it without having the mega budgets.
Not so much in Washington have we figured out how to deal with policy without the mega budgets. But the auditor in me is working on that part, trying to do a lot of work focusing in on the way Federal Government spends money, trying to figure out how we can do a better job at contracting, the ABC’s of the business world government has trouble with.
Yes, well, I think it’s fair to say that Hollywood is much better about firing people.
Yes. Although, I’ll tell ya, the American people are pretty good at holding folks accountable. One of the things that worries me, is that we have a tendency in Washington, many people in Washington, they forget, quickly, what has happened.
And what really happened in the last two election cycles is independent voters in this country rejected the Republican majorities and the Republican in the White House, and embraced the Democrats because I think they wanted things to be done differently. And sometimes I think that people who’ve been in Washington a long time forget that lesson and quit playing close attention to what people want. They quit listening and don’t hear frustrations, and that’s how you get fired . . . again.
Complacency can be a dangerous thing, eh?
Absolutely, and it’s easy to get complacent in Washington because, unfortunately, everyone in Washington treats you like you’re a pretty big deal.
Speaking of money . . . the House squeaked out a health care plan by two votes with a $1.1 trillion price tag, and you’ve said the Senate version will look at cost cutting. What’s in the House version that you think stands a good chance of being cut?
I think the thing that many senators are focused on, especially some of us that aren’t afraid to call ourselves moderates, is the cost cutting. This really is our opportunity and this is controversial stuff. The nature of the beast dictates that we’re going to make people upset. It’s why this can has been kicked down the road so many times. When you do something this big and this complicated, it’s impossible to do it without alienating large parts of the electorate. At least in the consideration phase it is.
I think in the long run, if you look back at the Medicare debate, for example, it was wildly unpopular, lots of accusations of Socialism, and now Medicare is one of the most popular government programs in existence. But if we go through this right now, if we walk over hot coals and try to get a bill, and don’t take a 2×4 to health care costs in this country, we really should look ourselves in the mirror and say, “why are we doing this?”
Because, yes, we want to make health insurance affordable and accessible to all Americans, but what’s really important for all Americans is that we get a handle on this deficit. And health care costs are the 800-pound gorilla. That’s why I think the House bill doesn’t go far enough in looking at ways that we can cut health care costs long term.
It’s also being said that the House bill is D.O.A in the Senate. Is that accurate or hyperbole?
Well, I think everyone needs to start understanding the premise, and that is: there is somewhere between 50 and 75 percent of all the bills that have been written that pretty much everybody agrees on. So there will be parts of the House bill that will certainly be included in the final legislation–no preexisting conditions, limiting some of the really “bad guy” stuff that insurance companies do–helping our medical professionals retire debt after school so we can get more primary care doctors and more nurses, more emphasis on prevention, helping people get preventative appointments because they’re so cost effective for all of us.
If we can get people in for more free prevention appointments, it saves everybody money, and I mean literally everybody. So those kinds of things are likely to be included in whatever bill we pass. Where there’s going to be disagreement is whether or not we have some option on the insurance exchange, and people have gotten this way out of perspective.
The insurance exchange is going to be a relatively small part of the insurance market. You still are going to have the vast majority of Americans in this country getting their insurance at work, and it’s only those people who don’t get insurance at work that will have the opportunity to pool their risk with others who have the same situation in this insurance exchange. And what’s in this exchange is where there may be some differences as to whether or not it’s a public option or whether it’s a not for profit co-op, along with a number of private insurance options that people will be able to shop among.
Anyone who watches the news and sees stories, for example, of the Joe Wilson outburst or footage of Rep. Tom Price yelling “I object” over and over again on the House floor might be a little put off by that sort of behavior and it may seem childish to some. How much of an image problem (partisanship aside) do you think Congress has right now?
I think there’s a lot of cynicism about Washington, and a healthy distrust of the central government is part of the American experience, frankly, and part of our democracy. It goes back to the very beginnings of our country, and the way our constitution was drawn up to try and limit the power of the central government. So, it is very natural to our democracy.
I do think that the Republicans are suffering a little on a couple of fronts. I think the Republican Party is having a bit of a civil war right now. The moderates in the Republican Party are feeling very lonely, very marginalized. The “right wing base,” the very conservative base, is flexing their muscle right now, and they are also very focused on being obstructionists.
They really believe–and this is true in Washington regardless of the parties–there is an old adage in Washington that the success of one party is the failure of the other party. And I think the Democrats engaged in this sometimes when they were in the minority, that you just want to block. You don’t want to do public policy, you just want to block.
Regardless of whether or not an argument makes sense . . .
Right, regardless of whether or not the argument makes sense, and I think there’s some of that going on. I think the image problem is significant, and the thing that’s most worrisome to me right now is that there was such a sense of hope and emotion, and really a rising up of a lot of people in this country to participate in the election last November.
And to some extent, perhaps some people’s expectations were unrealistic, perhaps overly idealistic, but I worry that the passion that brought Barack Obama to the presidency has cooled, and that the opponents to Barack Obama, the very, very gut level, visceral opposition to Barack Obama has galvanized, and it has become very energetic and very loud. And I just hope that the grass roots energy that elected Barack Obama, I hope they reawaken and realize that governing is different than a campaign, that there is nothing evil about compromise and pragmatism, that it’s how you make change.
You just can’t elect a new president and overnight, change happens. It’s a very tough road and you have to be pragmatic. But people should not go to sleep, or go home or give up. Because when you do, the opposition fills that space. And they’ve been pretty good at filling that space for the last few months, dominating the national debate with a huge dose of negativity.
How many pages is the health reform bill at the moment?
Depends on which bill you’re talking about. I think the House bill is just short of 2,000 pages.
Can I add one? Would anybody notice?
Oh yeah. People would definitely notice. One of the things about some of the folks that have been screaming is the ridiculous notion that we’re gonna pass something as big and complicated as this and nobody’s going to know what’s in it. I’ll be very honest with you, I know this is an important problem and I’m glad we’re working on it, but I’m sick of health care.
I’ll bet.
I have learned more and have studied more and have spent more time on this subject probably more than any other subject since I’ve been in public office
I understand you’re in the process of reading it now, but since I just asked you about Congress’ perception problem, I think this plays into it: how is it even possible that a lawmaker can feel so strongly and be so opinionated about a bill that many of them haven’t even read?
I think there will be some Republicans who are just opposed that won’t read it, but I’ll be surprised if the Senators, once we get a bill that comes to the floor, I’d be surprised if most Senators didn’t read it in its entirety.
And I know it’s frustrating it’s so long, but that pages are–first of all, they’re not like the pages of a book. You can take five or six pages of a bill and make one page of a book. There are not a lot of words to a page. And a lot of the language is what you can call “enrolling” language, and that is, where does this fit in the statutes and how does it relate in terms of the sections?
That’s kind of mundane and it’s hard to follow when you’re reading it, but if you don’t get that right you end up omitting a section you didn’t mean to omit or you end up not omitting something that needs to be omitted because it’s been changed, so while it’s technical and hard to read, the vast majority of the Senate and the vast majority of the staff that are working on this bill know these bills intimately. Every comma, every paragraph, every word.
I don’t want to spend a whole lot of time on the Stupak Amendment; real, honest-to-god journalists have that one covered. But I would like to ask you to clarify for the rest of us how it’s worded and what it means.
Sure. We have in the law right now the Hyde Amendment, and the Hyde Amendment is black letter Federal law, it has been for a number of years, and it prohibits the use of Federal tax dollars for any kind of abortion services whatsoever, except for cases of rape and incest.
So, what the Stupak Amendment does–and you have to understand what the insurance exchange is to understand what the Stupak Amendment is–the Stupak Amendment only addresses the insurance exchange. So as I said before, this is not going to be the majority of America in terms of their health insurance coverage. But on the exchange, some people will get subsidies, and what the Stupak Amendment says, is that if you’re getting a subsidy of any kind to help you buy insurance on the exchange, then you cannot buy any policy that has any kind of abortion coverage in it.
Now, there was an attempt to find a compromise and place a firewall within these policies: Let’s say you’re a family of four that makes $80,000 a year and you’re getting some kind of subsidy to help you buy insurance, but you’re also spending some of your private money. The attempt was made as part of the compromise, prior to the Stupak Amendment, that you could not use any of your Federal dollars for abortion services. But if you wanted to use your private money to get abortion services, you could.
The Stupak Amendment outlaws that. It says if you get any kind of subsidy, you cannot buy a policy that has those services.
Even if you buy it with your own private money.
Even if you’re using your private money for that part of the policy. So it’s an attempt to further limit that availability. Now, the interesting thing, in my state, the amendment is irrelevant. Because in my state abortion coverage in insurance policies is illegal, so frankly the Stupak Amendment has no impact on Missourians one way or the other. But obviously it’s a very controversial amendment.
Obama said in a recent interview that, “This is a health care bill, not an abortion bill.” Still, how easily do you think the arguments around the Stupak Amendment are going to drown out the thesis of health care reform?
Well, I got in some trouble because I was trying to dial down the Stupak Amendment controversy in a national appearance, and I think some of my pro-choice supporters got upset with me because they thought I wasn’t making a big enough deal of it and I wasn’t speaking out as strongly as I should have against it. But part of my fear here is that the health care debate gets hijacked by the long standing and (probably) never changing emotional controversy surrounding this subject of abortion.
I hope that everyone stays focused on making sure that we don’t let this subject matter bog us down and keep us from this really important work of reforming health care in this country.
Joe Lieberman is vehemently opposed to a public option, so let’s play the “what if?” game for a moment. What if sweeping health care reform is passed without a public option in it? Would that be considered an empty victory for Democrats?
What’s really unfortunate about this is that the public option was the precursor for the abortion controversy in that people were very focused on the public option debate without realizing that it is a small piece of it.
The reason it became such a touchstone for controversy is, it was the rationale that the opponents of health care were using, that this was the camel’s nose in the tent for massive government takeover of insurance. It was the olive branch to many progressives who wanted single payer. So one side of the debate was, unfortunately, guilty of saying we’re not going to do single payer to all of you that want single payer, but we’re going to do this public option. And frankly, that’s overselling the public option in terms of what it’s going to do.
And then on the other hand, the people who don’t want any health care reform are saying the public option is big bad government taking over insurance. So it’s a great example of the two far ends on this debate hijacking one part of the bill and blowing it up into a controversy that’s much larger than what it probably should have been.
I think the White House believes, the experts there, that a “trigger,” in many ways, is as progressive as a public option. Because what the trigger says to these insurance companies is, “You’ve got a sword hanging over your neck.” If you don’t get your act together trying to bring down prices for the American people, there will be a public option. But to the public option people, that’s a sellout. That’s nothing. It won’t work, you know, a robust public option or nothing.
When we began down this road and decided it wouldn’t be a single payer system, the public option debate became a stand in for the single payer debate. I think we’ve put a costume on public option and made it into something it’s not for purposes of controversy. I’m hopeful that everyone will keep perspective here and not draw lines in the sand because we need to get 60 votes in the Senate to get this done.
Do you think we’ll see anything from the Senate before 2010?
I think we’ll probably start debate in earnest the week after Thanksgiving, so the question is how long will this take. What people don’t fully comprehend are the Senate rules, and the Senate rules lend themselves towards delay. There are all these hours that have to go by on all these motions, cloture motions, post-cloture. So if you have to have a cloture motion on everything–and just think of a cloture motion, for laypeople, as “the thing that stops filibusters.” So the thing that stops filibusters–I wish we’d call it that instead of cloture–
Yeah, calling it a “filibuster buster” is much cooler.
Right, right. So the thing that stops filibusters takes 30 hours, so if everyone is trying to stop everything, you can imagine the time that has to transpire in order to move forward, especially with all the amendments being debated and all the controversy surrounding those amendments.
I’d say there’s a chance we don’t finish it before Christmas, but we certainly will begin work on it before Christmas. I would be shocked if we didn’t get it finished up and to the President’s desk by the middle of January, and I think we’ll have a bill before everyone is sending each other Valentine’s cards.
Plenty of Americans, whether they’re for health care reform or against it, know that it’s probably one of the most expensive things they’ve ever seen. Luckily for you, Claire, I have a plan to deflect the cost of health care reform, and you can take all the credit for this idea if it works. Ready?
Sure.
Get Michael Bay to be your Film Czar and open up a government run movie studio, and you guys start making movies. They don’t even have to be any good, they just have to make money. Michael Bay doesn’t make good movies. He makes money.
So what you’re saying is that we need Michael Bay to make movies for the Federal Treasury so we can get out of the deficit.
Right. Take the last Harry Potter movie. That netted $679 million. So, you make about eight of those, and that’s around $5 billion.
Now, that’s pretty good. I thought you were going to say that we just need to open up the ridiculously expensive popcorn and Coke concession.
No, well . . . that’s good too. And I know $5 billion isn’t a lot of money in this town.
Oh, $5 billion is a lot of money in this town.
Really?
Oh, sure. $5 billion is, well a little bit less, but $5 billion is around 25 percent of the entire budget of the state government of Missouri.
Hollywood is full of liberal actors anyways so I bet you could get Clooney and Matt Damon to work for cheap, and Brad Pitt used to live in Missouri so I bet he’d do whatever you wanted.
You know, I think that’s probably true. When George Clooney was in St. Louis making a movie [Clooney shot Up in the Air at a St. Louis airport] he was kind enough to come over and have dinner at my house. So we had a chance to talk around the table and we could probably talk him into helping out with this. I think you’ve got a plan.
Actually, there was a joke floating around over the summer that Brad Pitt was running for Mayor of New Orleans.
Is that right?
Yeah, because of all the humanitarian efforts he’s doing down there. I’m guessing you would have endorsed him . . .
Well, we have to take care of our Missourians.
Well, if I ever get to interview him one day, I’ll tell him you said hi. Hey, you don’t have his number, do you?
(Laughs) I do not have his number, sorry . . .
Damn. Worth a shot. All right, Claire. Thanks so much for taking the time.
Thank you.
–Interview by Joey Alfino, Red Editorial Staff